Agreed on wrestlling, for the most part. It's free, it's a sport, and it really only has a couple of weaknesses (not really designed to injure, so few options if you need to, and gives up the neck/back).
I think I disagree, partially, on needing both standing and ground for what I think of as "fighting". If you are looking to be the compleate gentleman, sure. But the average person isn't going to have a response to either of those things if you've trained them at all, so I think the need for the second is lessened.
Agreed that BJJ is a good choice for not getting injured, overall. I've heard of some people getting hurt in it (Sam Sheridan says he did in Fighter's heart) but it's rare and usually minor.
Fair. And I think this gets into the hardest part of this, which is for most people *any* efforts at self defense are wasted. And then in terms of bang-for-buck it goes weapons, being in generally good shape/a big man/strong, knowing real martial arts, knowing fake martial arts, knowing animal form kung fu, no-touch knockouts, or something like that.
So I think if someone is willing to commit any amount of resources to this the thing is "take a bunch of tactical shooting classes on weekends for a while, then take one of the sport arts, then another to fill in the gap (or train at an MMA gym that does both at once), and during all that get your cardio and whole-body strength in order".
But if someone was to come to me and say "What are my chances of using any of this before I die?" the answer would probably be "1/10, maybe? Maybe less?" if I had to guess. Not to say "don't get both" but just to say, by the time you get to that point you should be a boxer who is an excellent pistol shot, and it's hard to say how diminished the returns are.
Nice write up! Your experience matches mine, although mine is a lot more anemic till I got to college and had more access. I was lucky to have a judo class at PennState which was taught by one of the coaches of the wrestling team, and damn, Sensei Oishi was brutal. (Also funny as hell.) He could put down huge guys in a heart beat, whether they liked it or not (albeit, they were merely huge guys, just students). Judo is a sport, that is a physical game, but it is a sport that is done as hard as you can, very nearly however you can, and so to the extent it shares the goal of combat, getting your opponent to submit, it is very useful.
I have a bit more experience in weapons fighting, and you see the same patterns you describe. Sports like fencing, kendo, or target shooting are just that, sports. There's a big difference between being good at a sport and being good at fighting. Even moving from sports like fencing or kendo to a full contact sport like SCA heavy weapons combat you see how little transfers. Going from "touch for a point, possibly in very specific places" to "hit me pretty hard for a point, pretty much wherever" drastically changes what matters.
Interestingly, the hand to hand martial arts like tae kwon do and karate seem to transfer negatively to hitting armored people with a stick. I don't know if it is the focus on touch training and pulling punches in tournaments or what, but everyone I have known (perhaps not a large n) with a fairly extensive karate type background had a harder time getting used to striking people hard with a stick compared to your average newbie. I think at some point karate might kind of train the necessary aggression out of you.
I can see a lot of different ways that might work. Karate definitely taught me to pull punches, which messes up your punching form. I can only see that being worse with a 2' 2-5lb metal limb extension.
The other thing that occurs to me is that a lot of forms of Karate are not necessarily entirely linear, but they interact with round strikes in a weird way. Like I was taught to throw a roundhouse kick by lifting my knee up (and thinking of that as a distinct step in a process called "loading"), and then pivoting leg angle and kicking from there. That's almost entirely unlike how "swinging" something works, where it usually has a pretty defined smooth path.
Not sure how much that applies to broadswords, but it seems like that might cause a hitch in someone's giddyup in a way a more fluid concept of round strikes (like Muay Thai has) maybe wouldn't.
That's the funny thing, sword use is a lot more fluid and circular than people expect. One of my favorite shots with a short sword is a wrap to the leg, throwing the shot past the opponent and then snapping it back towards me, striking on the back of the legs. Works well on the head to for getting around shields. Most combos tend to be thrown through rotation of wrist and elbow as well, since unless you are dual wielding or using a pole arm you pretty much just have the one arm to strike with effectively. (Striking with shields is banned.)
I don't know anyone who went from Muay Thai to SCA, but I could see that being a bit more transferable, as they get really in close and personal, which helps I think. My dad started fighting SCA at 62, and while I to this day can't get him to throw shots with his hips, he wrestled and worked in a youth detention center most of his career, so he took to things very quickly. Not being afraid of getting thwacked nor being afraid to thwack someone else for fear of hurting them seems to be a big part of the game. I imagine that translates into actual combat situations as well.
My son takes a mixed martial arts class that teaches almost everything on your list. He hasn't ever competed though so not sure how good it really works. He's been thinking of just doing boxing but I liked the idea of him learning them all. That being said, how good can you ever be without actually getting in a fight. It'd be like practicing baseball but never playing a game
Well, remember that you have to compare it against the people he's fighting with, if that makes sense. He's broadly going to be at an advantage against all the "never fight, no training" cohort members and have a chance against the "training, never fight" guys,
He will arguably do better than he otherwise would have against the "no training, but fight a lot" dudes, but it's an open question as to how much; getting overwhelmed and forgetting what you've learned is a thing. People who have training and also get in a lot of fights are probably going to win if they fight, but realistically there just aren't that many of them.
I think what I'm saying is he's a little better off than the baseball scenario, mostly because he's living in a world where people mostly don't fight, and where training makes a big difference.
If you don't mind me asking, how long has he been doing it? I'm curious about what's drawing him towards boxing specifically, as opposed to boxing as a part of a bigger bundle of goods.
Makes sense, a lot of what you're saying aligns with what I was thinking. You should be big & strong first, then learn these other things makes a lot of sense. Like everything else, it also depends on how much time/effort you put into training & practice. My son has been doing it on/off for ~9 years. He's not really putting in a lot of effort. Recently, he wanted to focus on boxing because he says he enjoys it the most and wanted to get into the ring. That could be it, however I suspect it has more to do with peers and possibly what they talk about and are more into. Could also be that some kid he is having a problem "says" he's a boxer. A few of his friends say they box, but don't really. Just speculation though, but I told him none of it probably matters if you're not going to put in much effort. My main thinking on the baseball analogy was just with fighting, don't you have to at least get used to taking a punch? I mean if you never really fight, but train a lot I would think the first time you really get hit would be sort of a shock. Idk, I've been in a few fights and I don't really remember what getting punched was like outside of ears ringing.
Nice write-up. As I've said elsewhere, if I could design a martial art for me personally, I'd love a strip mall dojo version of Jackie Chan and Jet Li's training in the Peking Opera - basically cool looking techniques and weapons, often choreographed. It wouldn't prepare me for fights the way boxing would, but it would be good exercise, fun, and look cool, and would improve with body awareness and general coordination/balance the way most martial arts do.
It's probably more important to pick the dojo/gym than to pick the martial art, though I will say if you want to actually be able to defend yourself the choices boil down to (kick)boxing and BJJ, ideally both. If you're a library geek you will not like this answer because it involves strength and conditioning training and cardio that will probably make you feel like shit the first few times you do it. In any case you want to train somewhere with regular sparring with thoughtful oversight by the trainer.
Some other comments:
1. Re: Krav Maga - I did KM for a long time and don't have much to show for it except sparring experience (in headgear) and harder forearm bones. For reasons that take too long to explain there is enormous variability in the teaching content and quality of KM instructors, with the result being a net "avoid".
2. Muay Thai is incredible and churns out the deadliest fighters in the world time after time. This doesn't mean it's not for beginners or nerds. It will teach you how to stand and move and manage your resources, which are misunderstood skills in self defence or fighting.
3. You absolutely must get used to hitting and being hit. If your dojo/gym doesn't let you spar, find one that does. And if they don't organise and manage the sparring sessions in a way that is appropriate for you and your training partners' level, that can become a serious issue you should be aware of. Sparring is not fighting and it's not free-play, it's training.
Very late on this, but as someone who did capoeira from early elementary to mid highschool the absolute assassination of the whole concept is very funny. I remember in middle school me and another student starting to spar and the teacher stopping us because we were too aggressive. He told us sternly “this isn’t Tae Kwon Do!” Or something to that effect. It was explicitly a game and a dance, and there weren’t points so the game wasn’t winnable. I did actually kick people a few times though! I wanted to actually fight, and kind of wish the school I’d gone to had had anything else. We were told (roughly) that the version they did Back Then was a different style that was actually useful, but that there was also a (my word here) fluffy style that we were learning.
There's this phrase called "seeing the elephant" - it usually applies to the american pioneer period, and it's something that would happen to people when crossing the rockies. They'd see some raw expression of the power of the mountains - a rock slide or a thunderstorm, say - and be daunted. They'd cease travelling west and settle down to live meeker, calmer lives.
With that in mind, the "this isn't Tae Kwon Do" thing kills me. The idea of your instructor going to a Tae Kwon Do class, seeing a bunch of underweight black irish asthmatic teens flailing around and having the same experience in a "we daren't meddle with the power of these gods" makes me laugh so much.
Agreed on wrestlling, for the most part. It's free, it's a sport, and it really only has a couple of weaknesses (not really designed to injure, so few options if you need to, and gives up the neck/back).
I think I disagree, partially, on needing both standing and ground for what I think of as "fighting". If you are looking to be the compleate gentleman, sure. But the average person isn't going to have a response to either of those things if you've trained them at all, so I think the need for the second is lessened.
Agreed that BJJ is a good choice for not getting injured, overall. I've heard of some people getting hurt in it (Sam Sheridan says he did in Fighter's heart) but it's rare and usually minor.
Fair. And I think this gets into the hardest part of this, which is for most people *any* efforts at self defense are wasted. And then in terms of bang-for-buck it goes weapons, being in generally good shape/a big man/strong, knowing real martial arts, knowing fake martial arts, knowing animal form kung fu, no-touch knockouts, or something like that.
So I think if someone is willing to commit any amount of resources to this the thing is "take a bunch of tactical shooting classes on weekends for a while, then take one of the sport arts, then another to fill in the gap (or train at an MMA gym that does both at once), and during all that get your cardio and whole-body strength in order".
But if someone was to come to me and say "What are my chances of using any of this before I die?" the answer would probably be "1/10, maybe? Maybe less?" if I had to guess. Not to say "don't get both" but just to say, by the time you get to that point you should be a boxer who is an excellent pistol shot, and it's hard to say how diminished the returns are.
Nice write up! Your experience matches mine, although mine is a lot more anemic till I got to college and had more access. I was lucky to have a judo class at PennState which was taught by one of the coaches of the wrestling team, and damn, Sensei Oishi was brutal. (Also funny as hell.) He could put down huge guys in a heart beat, whether they liked it or not (albeit, they were merely huge guys, just students). Judo is a sport, that is a physical game, but it is a sport that is done as hard as you can, very nearly however you can, and so to the extent it shares the goal of combat, getting your opponent to submit, it is very useful.
I have a bit more experience in weapons fighting, and you see the same patterns you describe. Sports like fencing, kendo, or target shooting are just that, sports. There's a big difference between being good at a sport and being good at fighting. Even moving from sports like fencing or kendo to a full contact sport like SCA heavy weapons combat you see how little transfers. Going from "touch for a point, possibly in very specific places" to "hit me pretty hard for a point, pretty much wherever" drastically changes what matters.
Interestingly, the hand to hand martial arts like tae kwon do and karate seem to transfer negatively to hitting armored people with a stick. I don't know if it is the focus on touch training and pulling punches in tournaments or what, but everyone I have known (perhaps not a large n) with a fairly extensive karate type background had a harder time getting used to striking people hard with a stick compared to your average newbie. I think at some point karate might kind of train the necessary aggression out of you.
I can see a lot of different ways that might work. Karate definitely taught me to pull punches, which messes up your punching form. I can only see that being worse with a 2' 2-5lb metal limb extension.
The other thing that occurs to me is that a lot of forms of Karate are not necessarily entirely linear, but they interact with round strikes in a weird way. Like I was taught to throw a roundhouse kick by lifting my knee up (and thinking of that as a distinct step in a process called "loading"), and then pivoting leg angle and kicking from there. That's almost entirely unlike how "swinging" something works, where it usually has a pretty defined smooth path.
Not sure how much that applies to broadswords, but it seems like that might cause a hitch in someone's giddyup in a way a more fluid concept of round strikes (like Muay Thai has) maybe wouldn't.
That's the funny thing, sword use is a lot more fluid and circular than people expect. One of my favorite shots with a short sword is a wrap to the leg, throwing the shot past the opponent and then snapping it back towards me, striking on the back of the legs. Works well on the head to for getting around shields. Most combos tend to be thrown through rotation of wrist and elbow as well, since unless you are dual wielding or using a pole arm you pretty much just have the one arm to strike with effectively. (Striking with shields is banned.)
I don't know anyone who went from Muay Thai to SCA, but I could see that being a bit more transferable, as they get really in close and personal, which helps I think. My dad started fighting SCA at 62, and while I to this day can't get him to throw shots with his hips, he wrestled and worked in a youth detention center most of his career, so he took to things very quickly. Not being afraid of getting thwacked nor being afraid to thwack someone else for fear of hurting them seems to be a big part of the game. I imagine that translates into actual combat situations as well.
My son takes a mixed martial arts class that teaches almost everything on your list. He hasn't ever competed though so not sure how good it really works. He's been thinking of just doing boxing but I liked the idea of him learning them all. That being said, how good can you ever be without actually getting in a fight. It'd be like practicing baseball but never playing a game
Well, remember that you have to compare it against the people he's fighting with, if that makes sense. He's broadly going to be at an advantage against all the "never fight, no training" cohort members and have a chance against the "training, never fight" guys,
He will arguably do better than he otherwise would have against the "no training, but fight a lot" dudes, but it's an open question as to how much; getting overwhelmed and forgetting what you've learned is a thing. People who have training and also get in a lot of fights are probably going to win if they fight, but realistically there just aren't that many of them.
I think what I'm saying is he's a little better off than the baseball scenario, mostly because he's living in a world where people mostly don't fight, and where training makes a big difference.
If you don't mind me asking, how long has he been doing it? I'm curious about what's drawing him towards boxing specifically, as opposed to boxing as a part of a bigger bundle of goods.
Makes sense, a lot of what you're saying aligns with what I was thinking. You should be big & strong first, then learn these other things makes a lot of sense. Like everything else, it also depends on how much time/effort you put into training & practice. My son has been doing it on/off for ~9 years. He's not really putting in a lot of effort. Recently, he wanted to focus on boxing because he says he enjoys it the most and wanted to get into the ring. That could be it, however I suspect it has more to do with peers and possibly what they talk about and are more into. Could also be that some kid he is having a problem "says" he's a boxer. A few of his friends say they box, but don't really. Just speculation though, but I told him none of it probably matters if you're not going to put in much effort. My main thinking on the baseball analogy was just with fighting, don't you have to at least get used to taking a punch? I mean if you never really fight, but train a lot I would think the first time you really get hit would be sort of a shock. Idk, I've been in a few fights and I don't really remember what getting punched was like outside of ears ringing.
Nice write-up. As I've said elsewhere, if I could design a martial art for me personally, I'd love a strip mall dojo version of Jackie Chan and Jet Li's training in the Peking Opera - basically cool looking techniques and weapons, often choreographed. It wouldn't prepare me for fights the way boxing would, but it would be good exercise, fun, and look cool, and would improve with body awareness and general coordination/balance the way most martial arts do.
It's probably more important to pick the dojo/gym than to pick the martial art, though I will say if you want to actually be able to defend yourself the choices boil down to (kick)boxing and BJJ, ideally both. If you're a library geek you will not like this answer because it involves strength and conditioning training and cardio that will probably make you feel like shit the first few times you do it. In any case you want to train somewhere with regular sparring with thoughtful oversight by the trainer.
Some other comments:
1. Re: Krav Maga - I did KM for a long time and don't have much to show for it except sparring experience (in headgear) and harder forearm bones. For reasons that take too long to explain there is enormous variability in the teaching content and quality of KM instructors, with the result being a net "avoid".
2. Muay Thai is incredible and churns out the deadliest fighters in the world time after time. This doesn't mean it's not for beginners or nerds. It will teach you how to stand and move and manage your resources, which are misunderstood skills in self defence or fighting.
3. You absolutely must get used to hitting and being hit. If your dojo/gym doesn't let you spar, find one that does. And if they don't organise and manage the sparring sessions in a way that is appropriate for you and your training partners' level, that can become a serious issue you should be aware of. Sparring is not fighting and it's not free-play, it's training.
Thanks! This made me laugh out loid a few times
Very late on this, but as someone who did capoeira from early elementary to mid highschool the absolute assassination of the whole concept is very funny. I remember in middle school me and another student starting to spar and the teacher stopping us because we were too aggressive. He told us sternly “this isn’t Tae Kwon Do!” Or something to that effect. It was explicitly a game and a dance, and there weren’t points so the game wasn’t winnable. I did actually kick people a few times though! I wanted to actually fight, and kind of wish the school I’d gone to had had anything else. We were told (roughly) that the version they did Back Then was a different style that was actually useful, but that there was also a (my word here) fluffy style that we were learning.
There's this phrase called "seeing the elephant" - it usually applies to the american pioneer period, and it's something that would happen to people when crossing the rockies. They'd see some raw expression of the power of the mountains - a rock slide or a thunderstorm, say - and be daunted. They'd cease travelling west and settle down to live meeker, calmer lives.
With that in mind, the "this isn't Tae Kwon Do" thing kills me. The idea of your instructor going to a Tae Kwon Do class, seeing a bunch of underweight black irish asthmatic teens flailing around and having the same experience in a "we daren't meddle with the power of these gods" makes me laugh so much.