This is a great comment that I really appreciate - thank you.
I think we agree a lot on the fundamentals here. I think the incels wouldn't exist if it wasn't for a "perfect storm" of a lot of things - lack of sex/acceptance in the romance field, obviously, but also jobs not being as fulfilling, other kinds of relationships being weaker as…
This is a great comment that I really appreciate - thank you.
I think we agree a lot on the fundamentals here. I think the incels wouldn't exist if it wasn't for a "perfect storm" of a lot of things - lack of sex/acceptance in the romance field, obviously, but also jobs not being as fulfilling, other kinds of relationships being weaker as you note, and an internet culture that gets into a cycle of negative reinforcement (as Cassander notes below).
Like Cassander, I'm unsure how much we'd need to destroy that cycle now that it's going. I think everything you noted helps - like would the incel problem be better if families were more healthy? Almost for sure. Ditto jobs being better. Even ditto heterosexual skinmanship, as you note - seems to work well for the South Koreans, even though I'm trained enough to be revulsed by it anyway.
I *think* that stuff like this probably works on a spectrum of sorts. You said "In other words, we assume that any conditions which generate a significant pool of men who can't find partners will naturally cause hurt and hostility", and went on to say that isn't how it works. I think it probably does work that way, but not as a default "this creates incels" effect, but more one that moves people in a hurt, bitter direction. The easiest cure would be to wave a magic wand and make perfect spouses for everyone, but that doesn't mean other effects wouldn't be expected to counteract it somewhat.
The good news is that none of our solutions contradict each other anyway - sympathy, improved relationships and roles that increase meaning being pretty close to abstract goods in this case. And some of those are attainable, even - like, you could at least see them happening in non terrible ways.
This is a great comment that I really appreciate - thank you.
I think we agree a lot on the fundamentals here. I think the incels wouldn't exist if it wasn't for a "perfect storm" of a lot of things - lack of sex/acceptance in the romance field, obviously, but also jobs not being as fulfilling, other kinds of relationships being weaker as you note, and an internet culture that gets into a cycle of negative reinforcement (as Cassander notes below).
Like Cassander, I'm unsure how much we'd need to destroy that cycle now that it's going. I think everything you noted helps - like would the incel problem be better if families were more healthy? Almost for sure. Ditto jobs being better. Even ditto heterosexual skinmanship, as you note - seems to work well for the South Koreans, even though I'm trained enough to be revulsed by it anyway.
I *think* that stuff like this probably works on a spectrum of sorts. You said "In other words, we assume that any conditions which generate a significant pool of men who can't find partners will naturally cause hurt and hostility", and went on to say that isn't how it works. I think it probably does work that way, but not as a default "this creates incels" effect, but more one that moves people in a hurt, bitter direction. The easiest cure would be to wave a magic wand and make perfect spouses for everyone, but that doesn't mean other effects wouldn't be expected to counteract it somewhat.
The good news is that none of our solutions contradict each other anyway - sympathy, improved relationships and roles that increase meaning being pretty close to abstract goods in this case. And some of those are attainable, even - like, you could at least see them happening in non terrible ways.